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    The First Prog Album

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    BrufordFreak View Drop Down
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The First Prog Album
        Posted: May 05 2020 at 11:37
    Okay, I'm sorry to do this to everyone here, but, seeing as all of the old discussion threads are closed on this topic and its corollary ("When did progressive rock begin?") and I've re-aroused my continued ire that Miles Davis' Kind of Blue sits at #29 on PA's Top Albums list ("Progressive Rock Top Albums / all subgenres - 1 - all years - all countries"), I cannot help myself. 

    (Self:  "Yes, you can!" Other self:  "No, I can't!")

    It seems obvious, according to ProgArchives records and ratings, that the first prog album was Miles Davis' 1959 masterpiece, Kind of Blue

    End of discussion. 

    Albums such a Freak Out! and Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and Pet Sounds and Days of Future Passed and In The Court of the Crimson King and Family's Music in a Doll House and even the 13th Floor Elevators'  Easter Everywhere all came out in the 1960s. 

    Case closed. 

    The only way the answer could be otherwise would be if only Miles Davis' post-In a Silent Way releases (those classified as "Jazz Fusion") were allowed in the PA database. 

    I know I stirred things up a couple years ago with my quandary of why Kind of Blue is in the list of Top 100 "all-time best Progressive Rock albums." I understand the defense of this amazing album and this amazing artist, but if progressive rock started in the 1960s with Freak Out! or Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band or Pet Sounds and Days of Future Passed or In The Court of the Crimson King or Family's Music in a Doll House or even the 13th Floor Elevators'  Easter Everywhere then, logically, any albums from before these years need be relegated to the "Proto-Prog" or "Prog-Related" sub-categories. Capite? YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS! (says Schr鰀inger's very sly cat).

    (Bottom line: A spot in a list of Top Progressive Rock Albums of All-Time should not be occupied by a non-prog rock album! You can figure it out, Max or Admins. You have the technology and the know how!) 




    Edited by BrufordFreak - May 05 2020 at 11:40
    Drew Fisher,
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    Cristi View Drop Down
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 11:45
    can any of the admins take the Miles Davis album out so that all the complaining about it and top 100 stop?
    just wondering... 

    Nobody has ever said here on PA that A Kind of Blue is the first prog album. 

    It would be great if each prog album was labeled accordingly (they fixed this on MMA) but for PA is too late. So it's one genre/band. A mistake that can't be fixed anymore. 


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    Mortte View Drop Down
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 11:47
    First prog album was Harry Partch U.S. Highball, it came already 1946.
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 12:07
    In my opinion there was no first prog album. It was a gradual progression. I always thought Kind of Blue was just a jazz album. If it can be considered progressive(obviously it's not rock)then maybe it is the oldest prog album on here as long as prog doesn't have to be "prog rock."

    Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - May 05 2020 at 17:43
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    Logan View Drop Down
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 12:25
    I wouldn't want to see Kind of Blue removed from the database, and [email protected] wanted a complete discography policy, but it would be nice if it could be excluded from that list or if the list title was changed from Top Prog Albums to Top Ranked Albums by Acts Included in Prog Categories (or just Top Prog Categories Albums). Adding some words on this to the "Progressive Rock Top Albums / all subgenres" description that starts with "Based on members ratings & PA algorithm" would help, if people bother to read such stuff (and too many don't when it comes to such things). How many times I've explained to people that just because it's on that list doesn't mean it's considered Prog.

    I'm not currently an Admin, having stepped down as I planned to be taking a lengthy hiatus from the site (boo to me) to get my sh*t together, but such changes are up to [email protected] He manages and works on that side of things. The Admin, such as Keishiro and George (and past ones such as myself) can only do so much, and we wished we could do much more despite this being voluntary for us and other collabs.

    EDIT: By the way, I always wished we could tag albums with multi-labels. It's a shame that we are so limited in the ways that we can categorise music here.

    Edited by Logan - May 05 2020 at 12:33
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progosopher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 14:15
    I, like many, find it one of the great oddities of this site that Kind of Blue sits so high on its charts. It is a fantastic album, but it is not rock. It is, pure and simply, Jazz. Now, can Jazz be progressive? Certainly, as any form of music can be progressive. In fact, Miles meant for this album to be a game-changer. So yes, it is progressive, but it is not rock.

    Here is another way to look at the appropriateness of this album on the site: This is a Jazz album that appeals to many rockers, who have contributed heavily to its popularity. Who was listening to it in 1959? Perhaps members of all those early rock bands who contributed to the development of Prog. In that sense, it is indeed Proto-Prog, but since Miles is listed as J/R Fusion, it is put under that category. The issue is not whether an album contributed to some kind of progressiveness, but whether it has contributed to Progressive Rock. And yes, it has, but I still find its presence an oddity.
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 14:22
    Tangerine dream and klause schulze aren't rock either and yet there they are occupying precious real estate on the top 200

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    miamiscot View Drop Down
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote miamiscot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 14:54
    Jazz is not Prog.
    Metal is not Prog.
    Ambient is not Prog.
    AOR is not Prog.
    Electronica is not Prog.
    Pop is not Prog.
    Prog is Prog.

    Prog's Not Dead
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 15:00
    I've been pleasantly surprised to discover just how many of my favourite artists there are on ProgArchives who aren't generally regarded as prog, including Miles Davis, Kate Bush and David Bowie, to name just three.

    Edited by Psychedelic Paul - May 05 2020 at 16:03
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 15:18
    I think anyone with a cursory understanding of the history of prog (which can be very well provided by the articles and forums on PA) will quickly realize Kind Of Blue isn't a prog album, at the very least not by the typical definition. That it sits there and annoys people with its presence really isn't that big of a deal in the grander scheme of discussion because everyone already knows it's different from the rest of the records on that list and has more interesting things to discuss. 
    Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 15:21
    Leave it in, so that people have something to complain about!

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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 15:28
    This has been a problem that has been raised previously and will never change, bar Davis being removed from the archives. It does make the site look at best a bit silly and at worst quite dumb. But it is what it is unfortunately.
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 16:08
    Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

    I think anyone with a cursory understanding of the history of prog (which can be very well provided by the articles and forums on PA) will quickly realize Kind Of Blue isn't a prog album, at the very least not by the typical definition. That it sits there and annoys people with its presence really isn't that big of a deal in the grander scheme of discussion because everyone already knows it's different from the rest of the records on that list and has more interesting things to discuss. 
     
    I presume Miles Davis' Kind of Blue album is included here on account of his Bitches Brew album being in the Jazz Fusion genre, so his entire discography is included along with that album too.
     
    I can't see it being practicable to exclude some albums from an artist's discography here, on account of them not being classed as prog.


    Edited by Psychedelic Paul - May 05 2020 at 16:12
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 16:30
    It's not just a database issue of a lack of granularity. For a rating of 4.34, there are a lot of 5 star ratings given to it. By definition, the site defines five stars as "Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music" So, how is Kind of Blue a masterpiece of progressive rock music when it isn't progressive rock?? Hello?

    I gave ELO's Out of the Blue 2 stars on Prog Archives because it's not that much of interest to a prog rock enthusiast. On Rate Your Music, I gave it 4 stars, because it's a fine pop album that I like. 


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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 16:40
    "Progressive Music" would include Kind of Blue. "Prog Rock" certainly not.
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 16:45
    Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

    Leave it in, so that people have something to complain about!

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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 18:11
    Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

    "Progressive Music" would include Kind of Blue. "Prog Rock" certainly not.
    100% agree, and that is the issue. The site says "Your Ultimate Prog-Rock Resource" not "Your Ultimate Progressive Music Resource".

    As someone already mentioned, it is what it is and at best its silly and dumb, but overall I have no issue with it. 
    I also understand what Drew is saying in his OP, because KoB was released in 1959 and is on the PA Top Albums list, by definition it is the first prog album since it came before In the Court, Days of Future Passed and Freak Out. God, I would never consider Sgt Pepper prog rock, that is a pop music album at best.

    The entire universe knows KoB is jazz, modal jazz and/or progressive jazz. And stands light years ahead of most albums on the PA Top Album list.
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 18:42
    Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

    Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

    I think anyone with a cursory understanding of the history of prog (which can be very well provided by the articles and forums on PA) will quickly realize Kind Of Blue isn't a prog album, at the very least not by the typical definition. That it sits there and annoys people with its presence really isn't that big of a deal in the grander scheme of discussion because everyone already knows it's different from the rest of the records on that list and has more interesting things to discuss. 
     
    I presume Miles Davis' Kind of Blue album is included here on account of his Bitches Brew album being in the Jazz Fusion genre, so his entire discography is included along with that album too.
     
    I can't see it being practicable to exclude some albums from an artist's discography here, on account of them not being classed as prog.

    I mean, ideally, the every album would be listed with its own genre classification rather than just every artist, that way an artist as prolific and multi-faceted as Miles Davis wouldn't be lazily just classified as a fusion artist. But probably that's not feasible, so we see his most praised record in the top 100 even though it's long before he got into fusion. (I think Sketches Of Spain is probably more prog than Kind Of Blue as well, despite not being fusion either).
    Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 23:29
    IMHO there's not a single full Prog album before The Thoughts of the Emerlist Davjack by The Nice.

    Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 05 2020 at 23:30
                
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 23:49
    ^ but that would elevate Keith Emerson above Bob Fripp , Frank Zappa if it were true

    Back to to the OP.All revolutionary jazz artists are important. Why the obsession with Miles Davis? Is there anyone else worth talking about? How about Jimmy Smith or Dave Brubeck or Stan Kenton (pretending I know something about jazz ,  I don't!). Basically the point though is that if you asked Keith Emerson when he was alive or any number of prog luminaries they would have a massive long list of influences. But lets just focus on one guy. It's nonsense of course but I'm puzzled as to why it can't be fixed. Just remove from the database. Why would that be so bad? God help us should any sort of common sense prevail.
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